tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post1330034543002245569..comments2023-08-11T07:31:46.923-04:00Comments on Thoughts and Theology: Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?Jeffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comBlogger90125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-80505438864079335992008-08-18T23:50:00.000-04:002008-08-18T23:50:00.000-04:00I would just like to offer one last attempt to exp...I would just like to offer one last attempt to explain myself; not for the sake of argument, but hopefully, for the sake of clarification.<BR/><BR/>Saying that faith in Christ is not enough (i.e., that works have to be added) means that Christ's death on the cross was insufficient. This attacks the very foundation of Christianity.<BR/><BR/>Now, I do see a problem with easy-believism, and I believe that some false converts have resulted from 'praying a prayer of salvation' when they either never repented of their sins, or they simply didn't even understand what they were doing (and therefore the 'salvation prayer' was nothing more than a bunch of words, similar to the type of repetitious prayer that Jesus warned against), so there was never any actual regeneration that took place (i.e., they were never actually born again). However, that is very different from saying that works must be added to faith.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-58338463630626455222008-08-11T01:56:00.000-04:002008-08-11T01:56:00.000-04:00Most of the above comments that I wrote were writt...Most of the above comments that I wrote were written in the early AM hours, very late, when I was extremely tired, and therefore grouchy. I also wrote many of my comments in haste. So I probably was not as tactful as I should have been, and I probably got more personal with my comments than I should have.<BR/><BR/>I don't apologize for standing against false doctrine, but I do apologize for anything which could be construed as negative personal remarks.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-49889136556083108782008-08-10T16:49:00.000-04:002008-08-10T16:49:00.000-04:00Say there Jeleasure, me thinks you've been reading...Say there Jeleasure, me thinks you've been reading too many books by the experts, we have one expert why mix things up? Its easy to get sidetracked from the simplicity that's in Christ. I dare say the road to hell is riddled with the footprints of scholars, humanists, atheists, wanna be Christians that know of Christ but don't know Christ. Righteousness is of God so put on that righteousness that is in Christ Jesus and read your bible....<BR/><BR/>Thanks,<BR/>anomalyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-61059176808328510892008-08-10T15:41:00.000-04:002008-08-10T15:41:00.000-04:00"Salvation includes that which is given, freely an..."Salvation includes that which is given, freely and finally, by God (justification); that which is continually imparted (sanctification); and that still to be attained (glorification)."<BR/>(p. 180, "The Portable Seminary," David Horton, <I>General Editor</I>)<BR/><BR/>"Paul saw his own failure to attain legal righteousness reflected in all men and due to the overmastering power (rule) of sin, which brought with it death. Salvation is therefore, first, acquittal, despite just condemnation, on the ground of Christ's expiation of sin (Romans 3:20-22); and, second, deliverance by the invasive power of the Spirit of holiness, the Spirit of the risen Christ. The faith that accepts and assents to Christ's death on our behalf also unites us to him so closely that with him we die to sin and rise to new life (6:1-11). The results are freedom from sin's power (vv. 7, 18; 8:2); and exultation in the power of the indwelling Spirit and assurance of sonship (8); and increasing conformity to Christ. By the same process death is overcome, and believes are prepared for life everlasting (6:13, 2-23; 8:11)."<BR/>-Reginald E. O. White (<I>ibid,</I> p. 181)Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-62649792432499469262008-08-10T15:32:00.000-04:002008-08-10T15:32:00.000-04:00The Bible teaches eternal security for those who a...The Bible teaches eternal security for those who are saved.<BR/><BR/><I>Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, <B>guaranteeing</B> what is to come. (2 Cor. 1:21,22)</I><BR/><BR/>The saved person can be assured that they are going to Heaven.<BR/><BR/><I>I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may <B>know</B> that you have eternal life. (I John 5:13)</I>Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-49702392742800714152008-08-10T15:22:00.000-04:002008-08-10T15:22:00.000-04:00So, according to what you just said here, when Pau...<I>So, according to what you just said here, when Paul says in one sentence,in Romans 6:19 "Righteousness leading to Holiness..." He is saying "Holiness leading to Holiness"<BR/><BR/>You clearly do not understand the distinction between the two. This was my problem over twenty years ago when I was a new Christian and a Baptist. When I learned the difference, I knew I needed to find a church that taught that there was a difference.</I><BR/><BR/>According to the dictionary:<BR/><I>Righteousness, as used in Scripture and theology, in which it chiefly occurs, is nearly equivalent to holiness, comprehending holy principles and affections of heart, and conformity of life to the divine law.<BR/><BR/>The state of being right with God; justification; <B>the work of Christ,</B> which is the ground of justification.</I><BR/><BR/>Holiness is:<BR/><I>The state or quality of being holy; <B>perfect</B> moral integrity or purity; freedom from sin; sanctity; innocence.</I><BR/><BR/>Sanctify is:<BR/><I>to make holy; set apart as sacred; consecrate.</I><BR/><BR/><I>God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. --2 Thess. 2:13</I> (This is another verse that teaches Election)<BR/><BR/>The ESV says,<BR/><I>But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.</I><BR/><BR/>The NKJV says,<BR/><I>But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.</I><BR/><BR/>The NCV says,<BR/><I>But now you are free from sin and have become slaves of God. This brings you a life that is only for God, and this gives you life forever.</I><BR/><BR/>The 21st Century KJV says,<BR/><I>But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.</I><BR/><BR/>The Darby Translation says,<BR/><I>But now, having got your freedom from sin, and having become bondmen to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life.</I><BR/><BR/>The NIV(UK) says,<BR/><I>But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.</I><BR/><BR/>The Holman Christian Standard Bible says,<BR/><I>But now, since you have been liberated from sin and become enslaved to God, you have your fruit, which results in sanctification — and the end is eternal life!</I><BR/><BR/>The worldwide English New Testament says,<BR/><I>But now you have been made free from wrong ways and you have been made God's slaves. You are made good and you will live for ever.</I><BR/><BR/>The New International Reader's Version puts it quite well:<BR/><B>You have been set free from sin. God has made you his slaves. The benefit you gain leads to holy living. And the end result is eternal life.</B><BR/><BR/>Sanctification is a process which can only be participated in by one who is born again. And one who is born again has eternal life. A person who is born again, or regenerated, is sanctified and holy and righteous, in position, by the blood of Christ. But they still have a fleshly, carnal nature, so they still sin. Therefore, the Holy Spirit empowers them to resist temptation and obey God. They will not do this perfectly until they get to Heaven. That's why Paul and others commanded believers to obey God---but this command was not meant as a requirement for Heaven. No one will ever be perfect holy in their actions, thoughts and words here on earth; but the goal is to live your life as to be more and more Christlike, by spending time in His Word and in prayer. Once the Christian is taken to Heaven, however, the process of sanctification will be immediately completed, because, as I said, no one can complete that process here on earth, because we still have our fallen natures while we are on earth, and are still susceptible to sin.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-67121287024756122832008-08-10T14:39:00.000-04:002008-08-10T14:39:00.000-04:00What I am saying is salvation is in Galations 3:13...<I>What I am saying is salvation is in Galations 3:13.</I><BR/><BR/>Being redeemed from the curse of the law includes being made sanctified and holy and righteous.<BR/><BR/>Verse 18 says, "For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise."<BR/><BR/>Getting to Heaven cannot be accomplished by trying to follow the law, because no human is able to do that. Works are an evidence of faith, but do nothing as far as adding to it, regarding getting ot Heaven.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-73251016211018605882008-08-10T14:33:00.000-04:002008-08-10T14:33:00.000-04:00Jim,ust one more thing. Galations 3:13 says that C...Jim,<BR/><BR/><I>ust one more thing. Galations 3:13 says that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law.<BR/>When I say we are saved, I am, as Paul is here and in Romans 6:13,19-23 saying we are saved from the condemnation of the law. Then we must go on to to good works. These are the good works that are met out to evidence our love for one another.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, but those works are not a requirement for Heaven. They are, as you said, an <I>evidence</I> of our salvation. And salvation includes a guarantee of Heaven.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-60620174235262742392008-08-10T11:24:00.000-04:002008-08-10T11:24:00.000-04:00Russ often quotes him. His name is Wiliam Mounce. ...<EM>Russ often quotes him. His name is Wiliam Mounce.</EM> <BR/><BR/>I quote Robert, often.<BR/><BR/>Thanks.:)Dr. Russell Norman Murrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06703130625190233670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-11249051534029473602008-08-10T11:17:00.000-04:002008-08-10T11:17:00.000-04:00What I am saying is we are saved by faith alone.Th...<EM>What I am saying is we are saved by faith alone.<BR/>This is our righteousness. Then, as Paul says, Righteousness leads to holiness and the end is everlasting life. (Romans 6:19-21).</EM><BR/><BR/>We are saved by grace through faith alone. Ephesians 2: 8-10. Not as a results of works, but created in Christ for good works. Romans 5: 1, we are justified by faith with God through Christ. We are justified by the blood of Christ and saved from the wrath of God through him, 5: 9. We are justified as a gift by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ, Romans 3: 24.Dr. Russell Norman Murrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06703130625190233670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-25883713673965709122008-08-10T08:08:00.000-04:002008-08-10T08:08:00.000-04:00Jeff said, "I don't think you understand what th...Jeff said,<BR/><BR/> "I don't think you understand what the meaning of these words are, either. "Righteous" means holy. "Sanctified" is the same as holy---to be set apart for God's use".<BR/><BR/> So, according to what you just said here, when Paul says in one sentence,in Romans 6:19 "Righteousness leading to Holiness..." He is saying "Holiness leading to Holiness"<BR/><BR/> You clearly do not understand the distinction between the two. This was my problem over twenty years ago when I was a new Christian and a Baptist. When I learned the difference, I knew I needed to find a church that taught that there was a difference.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-31852308164885713372008-08-10T03:26:00.000-04:002008-08-10T03:26:00.000-04:00Russ, I am not in error. What I am saying is sal...Russ,<BR/> I am not in error.<BR/> What I am saying is salvation is in Galations 3:13. This is why we have life more abundant. We are free from the Law, and will not eternally be condemned by it.<BR/> What I am saying is we are saved by faith alone.<BR/> This is our righteousness. Then, as Paul says, Righteousness leads to holiness and the end is everlasting life. (Romans 6:19-21).<BR/> We are saved by faith alone. But salvation, according to William D. Mounce in the Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament says of the word 'justified' and 'righteous' it is the word "Dikiasune". It states 'to have investiture with what causes one to be in a right relationship with God'.<BR/> Our investiture in Christ is what makes the relationship with God available. This is what the law could not do.<BR/> So, I am saying that we are saved through faith alone.<BR/> I am not equaiting salvation with going to Heaven. It is salvation and glorification. We will be glorified because we have had faith in Christ (been saved from the condemnation of the Law and have had a relationship with God made available) and through our works, we have kept our relationship with God. Because Jesus says, If you love me, my father will love you also. How do we love Jesus? By keeping His commands. We have a relationship with Jesus by having love for one another. This is our works. It is what works toward perfection.<BR/> Perfection being that which God intended for us to be, His family.<BR/><BR/> Being His family comes from first being justified, then having love for oneanother. This is why we go to Heaven, because we are His family, and Heaven is where He has made our home. Christ said, I go to prepare a place for you.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-50303198829031867042008-08-10T03:10:00.000-04:002008-08-10T03:10:00.000-04:00Jeff, Just one more thing. Galations 3:13 says t...Jeff,<BR/> Just one more thing. Galations 3:13 says that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law.<BR/> When I say we are saved, I am, as Paul is here and in Romans 6:13,19-23 saying we are saved from the condemnation of the law. Then we must go on to to good works. These are the good works that are met out to evidence our love for one another.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-45552301966566623102008-08-10T03:09:00.000-04:002008-08-10T03:09:00.000-04:00Hello, boys. It is Robert Mounce.I have not and am...Hello, boys. <BR/><BR/>It is Robert Mounce.<BR/><BR/>I have not and am not going to read all 76+ comments thoroughly. I have computer stuff to do for Mommy.<BR/><BR/>To be saved we are regenerated by God to believe/trust in Christ.<BR/><BR/>This does not require completely correct theology on ever single issue, but the right God must be worshipped.<BR/><BR/>The cults do not worship the Biblical God.<BR/><BR/>There are Christians that have a basically Biblical view of God and Christ, and yet do not accept justification/salvation by grace through faith alone. They believe in justification/salvation by faith.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Note: Historically most Roman Catholics and Orthodox believe in justification/salvation by grace through faith, but not by grace through faith alone. This is error in my view, but they can know the correct Biblical God, in contrast to the cults.<BR/><BR/>Russ:)Dr. Russell Norman Murrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06703130625190233670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-85895650637559432542008-08-10T03:04:00.000-04:002008-08-10T03:04:00.000-04:00Then we must live a life unto holiness.But you jus...<I>Then we must live a life unto holiness.</I><BR/><BR/>But you just admitted that there is none perfect, and holiness means perfection. So, once again, you don't even understand what you are saying. You are completely contradicting yourself. Faith in Christ alone is the one and only thing that gets a person to Heaven. Good works are a proof of true faith. But good works cannot add a single ounce to your salvation. 'Good' works will not get you one inch closer to Heaven. Again, Jesus said the only 'work' that is required is to believe in Him. Isaiah 64:6 says that our moral 'works' are as filthy as a stinking rag to God. So how can we think that our works can add to our salvation?Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-39306215233717316042008-08-10T02:59:00.000-04:002008-08-10T02:59:00.000-04:00And is also the reason only six percent of all peo...<I>And is also the reason only six percent of all people who call themselves christians do not truly understand the core message of the Bible.</I><BR/><BR/>Here in the United States, I would say that a large number of people who call themselves 'Christian' are not born again or regenerated, and do not know Christ. In other words, they may call themselves 'Christian,' but they are not Christians. They may go to church, or they may have been baptized, or they may even teach Sunday School, but they are not true Christians.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-372017046686016462008-08-10T02:58:00.000-04:002008-08-10T02:58:00.000-04:00Jeff said,"So tell me: who, on this earth, do you ...Jeff said,"So tell me: who, on this earth, do you know, who is absolutely perfect, and needs no motivation or encouragement to do the right thing?"<BR/><BR/> There is none perfect. This is the challenge. We must show ourselves to be of the family of God. This is done by accepting Christ as our atonement to present us as righteous. And our love for one another is the signature of God's family. This is why we will live in His kingdom forever. Our faith expressing itself in love as Paul says is the only thing that matters. This is the answer I have been looking for. Your answer suggest it. But does not zero in on it.<BR/><BR/> Good night.<BR/> Once more, so that there is no confusion, I will say, we must confess Christ as our savior to be free from the condemnation of the law.<BR/> Then we must live a life unto holiness. Then, in the end is ever lasting life. This is what Paul says in Romans 6:19-22<BR/><BR/> I don't know why I spent so much time on this issue. It is in the Bible, <BR/>Good night.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-17879438666771388402008-08-10T02:57:00.000-04:002008-08-10T02:57:00.000-04:00If we believe on Christ, we are going to do the wo...<I>If we believe on Christ, we are going to do the works He asked us to do.</I><BR/><BR/>Now you're contradicting your last statement. I believe that if we believe on Christ, we are going to do the works He asked us to do...not perfectly, but we now have a desire to do them, and we have the power to do them. Those good works are the proof of salvation, but are not added to salvation as a requirement for Heaven.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-72377079428128740382008-08-10T02:51:00.000-04:002008-08-10T02:51:00.000-04:00Jeff quoted me and gave the following answer.But, ...<I>Jeff quoted me and gave the following answer.<BR/><BR/>But, I don't believe that we will go to Heaven on our stating that we are Christians, alone.<BR/><BR/>Jeff's response.<BR/><BR/>Neither do I.<BR/><BR/>So, why have you been calling me a devil?</I><BR/><BR/>Because a person stating that they are a Christian does not mean they are a Christian. That's exactly what James was talking about, which I have been trying to get across to you.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-52445786127498026482008-08-10T02:50:00.001-04:002008-08-10T02:50:00.001-04:00Jeff said, "You are contradicting yourself here. ...Jeff said,<BR/><BR/> "You are contradicting yourself here. Which is it? Simply believe on Him, OR you can't get to Heaven unless you do good works?"<BR/><BR/>It is the same thing, Jeff. If we believe on Christ, we are going to do the works He asked us to do. There is no contradicion.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-53828722977976911532008-08-10T02:50:00.000-04:002008-08-10T02:50:00.000-04:00f we get saved and go on sinning there is no atone...<I>f we get saved and go on sinning there is no atonement.</I><BR/><BR/>The Bible does not say this.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-49835253687427320962008-08-10T02:49:00.000-04:002008-08-10T02:49:00.000-04:00I believe in Christ alone to save us.But do you un...<I>I believe in Christ alone to save us.</I><BR/><BR/>But do you understand what the word "saved" means? It means we are saved from Hell (and from our sins) and we are going to Heaven!<BR/><BR/><I>We must be made Righteous before we can be made sanctified.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think you understand what the meaning of these words are, either. "Righteous" means holy. "Sanctified" is the same as holy---to be set apart for God's use.<BR/><BR/><I>Jesus saves us from the condemnation of the law. His sacrifice justifies us in the Eyes of The Father</I><BR/><BR/>Right---which means that those who are saved from the condemnation of the law are going to Heaven! If we are justified in the eyes of the Father, then we are holy! Then we are righteous! Then we are sanctified!<BR/><BR/><I>If we get saved and go on sinning there is no atonement.</I><BR/><BR/>I think I see the problem. You are trying to force your Armenian beliefs into the Scripture. You believe that a person can lose their salvation, so you are trying to force the Scripture to say this, when in fact, the Scripture is not saying this at all. I think that's where the problem lies.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-4470397746378854222008-08-10T02:47:00.000-04:002008-08-10T02:47:00.000-04:00Jeff said, "if you are saying that we must not on...Jeff said,<BR/> "if you are saying that we must not only believe in Jesus, but we must perform good works in order to get to Heaven".<BR/><BR/>This is exactly what I am saying. And is also the reason only six percent of all people who call themselves christians do not truly understand the core message of the Bible.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-17193950870898582812008-08-10T02:44:00.000-04:002008-08-10T02:44:00.000-04:00Jeff said,"You posted the same comment 4 times, Ji...Jeff said,<BR/>"You posted the same comment 4 times, Jim".<BR/><BR/>The window was not closing to confirm that the comment went through.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-59274766816927260232008-08-10T02:43:00.000-04:002008-08-10T02:43:00.000-04:00If you agree with the definitions, then why are yo...<I>If you agree with the definitions, then why are you still asking me what I believe?</I><BR/><BR/>Because he's not saying what you apparently think he's saying. You don't understand him anymore than you understand the gospel, if you are saying that we must not only believe in Jesus, but we must perform good works in order to get to Heaven.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.com