tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post4066343726311178758..comments2023-08-11T07:31:46.923-04:00Comments on Thoughts and Theology: Did Jesus have a sin nature?Jeffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-73939246359506725382008-07-13T20:37:00.000-04:002008-07-13T20:37:00.000-04:00Jim,Agreed. Sin is a choice.And, of course, as Chr...Jim,<BR/><BR/>Agreed. Sin is a choice.<BR/><BR/>And, of course, as Christians, I think you will agree that we now have the power to overcome sin, and to choose <I>not</I> to sin. We now have a desire for righteousness, and, when we do fall to sin as Christians, the Holy Spirit is grieved. And, according to I John 1:9, as soon as we repent of that sin, a right relationship with the Father can be restored. A non-Christian, as you already know, has no relationship with the Father, except one of receiving wrath, as an enemy.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-29990570504666211872008-07-13T20:00:00.000-04:002008-07-13T20:00:00.000-04:00And Sin, Jeff, is also a choice. Not automaton.And Sin, Jeff, is also a choice. Not automaton.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-87361778198819740072008-07-13T18:52:00.000-04:002008-07-13T18:52:00.000-04:00Jim,A sin nature is a corrupt nature inherited fro...Jim,<BR/><BR/>A sin nature is a corrupt nature inherited from Adam.<BR/><I>"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5)</I><BR/><BR/>Free will is that ability to choose.<BR/><BR/>The holy angels (as opposed to the fallen angels) have free will (which is why the fallen angels were able to rebel against God), yet the holy angels have never sinned. Neither do they have a sin nature.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, 'sin nature' and 'free will' are different things.<BR/><BR/>However, free will, led only by a sin nature (i.e., a person who does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit), has a natural susceptibility and natural tendency to sin. It is as normal for such a person to rebel against God's authority as it is for a fish to swim. That's why Election was necessary. If God didn't choose some, none would come to Him of their own free will.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-85629610138319401942008-07-13T18:02:00.000-04:002008-07-13T18:02:00.000-04:00Jeff, Explain the difference in 'sin nature' and ...Jeff,<BR/> Explain the difference in 'sin nature' and 'free will'.<BR/> I'd say they are one and the same.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-33887160498358438302008-07-13T13:32:00.000-04:002008-07-13T13:32:00.000-04:00Jim,And if Jesus used His power to make His suffer...Jim,<BR/><BR/><I>And if Jesus used His power to make His sufferings go away, this would have been outside of The Father's will. This would have been a sin.</I><BR/><BR/>And if Jesus would have given in to Satan's temptations in the wilderness, it would have been sin. But the point is, He didn't. He never gave in. He never sinned.<BR/><BR/>If He gave in to sin, even once, He would not have been able to die for our sins, and we would all go to Hell. There would be no salvation.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-56303827503531285452008-07-13T13:28:00.000-04:002008-07-13T13:28:00.000-04:00I would have to disagree with comments that say Je...<I>I would have to disagree with comments that say Jesus did not have a sin nature. By virtue of Jesus' having His own will means that He had the potential to sin. As long as He was breathing and suffering in the flesh, even against His very own sexuality as much as He sufferred on the cross, he had the ability to make it all go away because He was the fullness of the God head in the body.</I><BR/><BR/>As I pointed out, Adam, Eve, and Lucifer all sinned before having any sort of sin nature, so therefore, it must be possible to fall to sin without a sin nature.<BR/><BR/>Because Jesus had no earthly biological father, the sin nature was not passed down to Him.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-58953512217160674782008-07-13T01:53:00.000-04:002008-07-13T01:53:00.000-04:00And if Jesus used His power to make His sufferings...And if Jesus used His power to make His sufferings go away, this would have been outside of The Father's will. This would have been a sin.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-32156317552155197772008-07-13T01:50:00.000-04:002008-07-13T01:50:00.000-04:00I have to agree that Jesus was 'sinless'. This is...I have to agree that Jesus was 'sinless'. This is completely obvious. He fulfilled the Law, down to all of those things that are obscure to you and me. <BR/><BR/>I would have to disagree with comments that say Jesus did not have a sin nature. By virtue of Jesus' having His own will means that He had the potential to sin. As long as He was breathing and suffering in the flesh, even against His very own sexuality as much as He sufferred on the cross, he had the ability to make it all go away because He was the fullness of the God head in the body.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-23051808885863283132008-07-12T23:20:00.000-04:002008-07-12T23:20:00.000-04:00Jim,Well, I can't really say how much I agree or d...Jim,<BR/><BR/>Well, I can't really say how much I agree or disagree with you, because I'm not completely sure of what you're really saying. Instead, let me just state a few things. I suspect that you will at least be in agreement with most of this. Please realize that some of my comment here is not so much for your sake, but partially for the sake of clarification for others who may read this.<BR/><BR/>Eve, and then Adam, fell to sin, even though neither of them had a sin nature before doing so. Lucifer fell to sin, even though he had no sin nature before his rebellion.<BR/><BR/>The Bible tells us that Jesus was indeed tempted, yet He never fell to sin even once. <BR/>Hebrews 4:15, "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."<BR/><BR/>Jesus had an earthly mother, which made Him human, but He had no earthly father, and thereby the sin nature was not passed down to Him, which made Him able to die for our sins. <BR/><BR/>A sinner cannot fulfill the law because he is sinful (in the flesh). If Jesus had sinned, He would have been an offense to the Father, and therefore could not have provided a spotless sacrifice.<BR/><BR/>Jesus was always perfect morally, because He never sinned.<BR/><BR/>Jesus fulfilled God's Law perfectly.<BR/><BR/>Jesus was indeed born under the Law:<BR/>Gal. 4:5-6, "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, <B>born under the Law, in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law</B>, that we might receive the adoption as sons."<BR/><BR/><I>"Being under the Law means that Jesus was subject to the Law. This is natural because He was a man, a good Jew who would properly be subject to the Torah, the Law. Also, since He is God in flesh, and since as God He authored the Law, He would naturally be subject to it. Let me clarify this. God spoke the Law. The Law is a reflection of the character of God. It is wrong to lie because God cannot lie. It is wrong to bear false witness because God cannot bear false witness. The Law reflects God's nature and character. God spoke it to us as a revelation of moral truth. Jesus said that we speak out of the abundance of our hearts (Matt. 12:34). Therefore, Jesus, as God in flesh, would naturally live and reflect that Law which God had given so long ago which God spoke out of the abundance of His own heart.<BR/><B>Under the Law</B><BR/>"In order for the Word (John 1:1) to be under the Law (Gal. 4:4), He would have to become a man, born of a woman. To be under the Law would mean that Jesus would have to be circumcised. This can only happen if He was a baby. He would then grow in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52). It means that He would be subject to His parents per Exodus 20:12. It means that He would have to wait until the appropriate time in His life to enter into the ministry to accomplish the will of the Father who sent Him. None of these things negates His divine nature. <BR/><BR/>Being under the Law necessitates that He be a man, that He behave as a man, and that being a man means that all the limitations and qualities of being a man are also His -- at least to the extent that the Divine allows itself to experience limitation while incarnated. Again, this does not mean that He does not possess a divine nature. It means that as He emptied Himself to become a man (Phil. 2:7) and that He cooperated with the limitations of being a man under the Law. Furthermore, Jesus did all His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit.<BR/><BR/>Jesus was baptized to enter into the Melchizedek Priesthood. This is very significant because it means that Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and did all His miracles by the Power of the Holy Spirit -- because He was a man made completely under the Law.<BR/><BR/>Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was a priest after the order of Melchizedek (Psalm 110:4; Heb. 5:8-10; 6:20). Priests offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice for our sin (1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21) in His role as priest. To be consecrated as a priest, He had to be washed with water (Lev. 8:6; Exodus 29:4, Matt. 3:16); This was fulfilled in the water of baptism when Jesus was baptized. He had to be anointed with oil (Lev. 8:12; Exodus 29:7; Matt. 3:16), This is fulfilled when the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus as a dove. Both of these were bestowed upon Jesus at His baptism. Additionally, He may have needed to be 30 years old - (Num. 4:3).<BR/><BR/>Heb. 2:9 says that Jesus was made for a while lower than the angels. This means that Jesus was in a humbled position. The angels are far greater creatures than humans in power and mental abilities. Jesus was made lower than them. That is, He was made a man. He was not exercising His Lordship over all of creation. This further means that Jesus was operating, walking, talking, living, and acting as a man who was subject to the Law.<BR/><BR/>Because Jesus was made lower than the angels, as a man, there are certain ramifications to this humbled and emptied condition.<BR/>That Jesus was subject to the Law, (Gal. 4:4).<BR/>Jesus was subject to the Father who sent Him, (John 5:30).<BR/>Jesus would be circumcised, (Luke 1:59).<BR/>Jesus would grow in wisdom and stature, (Luke 2:52).<BR/>Jesus would not know all things (Mark 13:32).<BR/>etc.<BR/><BR/>The above facts do not negate the deity of Christ. God could easily become a man, humble Himself, join Himself to human nature and then be subject to the Law, to grow, to learn, etc. This would be a natural result of being a man, wouldn't it? And, it would not negate the deity of Christ at all. It only demonstrates that the Word made flesh was fully a man. Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him [Jesus] all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."<BR/><BR/>Jesus did indeed come to fulfill the Law:<BR/>In Matthew 5, Jesus said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." <BR/><BR/>Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9) and only God can satisfy the Law requirements of a perfect life and perfect sacrifice that cleanses us of our sins. Since we are stained by sin and cannot keep the Law of God, then the only One Who could do what we cannot is God Himself. That is why Jesus is God in flesh. He is both divine and human. He was made under the Law (Gal. 4:5-6) and He fulfilled it perfectly. Therefore, His sacrifice to God the Father on our behalf is of infinite value and is sufficient to cleanse all people from their sins and undo the offense to God.<BR/><BR/>Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law, but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place.<BR/>Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; <B>not as a result of works</B>, that no one should boast."<BR/><BR/>Gal. 3:13, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us, for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."<BR/><BR/>Hebrews 5:9, "And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation."<BR/>As a man, Jesus was perfected though suffering. As a man, he was made perfect; that is, He was as a <B>completed</B> sacrifice by the <B>finished</B> work of propitiation. He fulfilled the Law as well as the Messianic prophecies. He also fulfilled the requirements for a High Priest. Heb. 10:14 says, "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."<BR/><BR/>He cooperated with the limitations of being a man so that He could do what He had to do. He has two natures: God and man. He emptied Himself to become a man (Phil. 2:7) and He cooperated with the limitations of being a man under the Law."<BR/>http://www.carm.org/doctrine/humbled.htm</I>Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-43117838324100305362008-07-12T19:04:00.000-04:002008-07-12T19:04:00.000-04:00Hey Jeff, I will agree with this statement made...Hey Jeff,<BR/> I will agree with this statement made by the Christadelphians. But, notice, I left the last few words off.<BR/><BR/> "shared the very nature which had made a sinner out of ever other man who had borne it. It is for this reason that the nature we bear is called "sinful flesh"<BR/><BR/> Jesus had to have the potential to sin. Otherwise, He could not have atoned for us had he not defeated a temptation to sin.<BR/><BR/> The Christadelphians are really confused if they think that Jesus offered sinful flesh as an atoning element.<BR/><BR/> In my writing on this subject, I say, as Hebrews states, that Jesus had to "Perfect Himself through his sufferings". He had to undergo temptation and defeat its attempts to clutch at Him.<BR/><BR/> I also say that He performed ceremonial cleansings as a requirement of the Law. Had He not, He would not have fulfilled the Law and could not have been perfect when He took His last breath. Because it is by the Standard of God, That God determins Perfection. And the Law was set down to show us our sin. If we kept the Law, we had no sin.<BR/>(my understanding may not be stated the way you prefer). Careful in being quick to criticise. That is getting old. Especially when I can see I agree with you. Then you come back with an argument.jeleasurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573831215568628361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-7187486441342123342008-07-12T02:06:00.000-04:002008-07-12T02:06:00.000-04:00Yes, and Lucifer and his cohorts also existed in a...<I>Yes, and Lucifer and his cohorts also existed in a spiritual realm with God that we have not yet existed in. This spiritual existence with God may make restoration of these fallen beings displeasing to God.</I><BR/><BR/>Oooo, very good point!Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-66686255801246197552008-07-12T00:46:00.000-04:002008-07-12T00:46:00.000-04:00You might say that it will be because we won't hav...<EM>You might say that it will be because we won't have a sin nature, yet Lucifer didn't have a sin nature, and he fell to sin. However, Lucifer never experienced redemption and forgiveness, nor did anyone die for his sins; in contrast...</EM><BR/><BR/>Yes, and Lucifer and his cohorts also existed in a spiritual realm with God that we have not yet existed in. This spiritual existence with God may make restoration of these fallen beings displeasing to God.Dr. Russell Norman Murrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06703130625190233670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-88240083281227167022008-07-11T23:30:00.000-04:002008-07-11T23:30:00.000-04:00Thanks, Russ.I have wondered what will keep us fro...Thanks, Russ.<BR/><BR/>I have wondered what will keep us from sinning when we get to Heaven. You might say that it will be because we won't have a sin nature, yet Lucifer didn't have a sin nature, and he fell to sin. However, Lucifer never experienced redemption and forgiveness, nor did anyone die for his sins; in contrast, we should be eternally grateful for having been chosen, redeemed, regenerated, sanctified and glorified. And we will already know what sin is like, so we should not want to go back. My former Pastor said that Jesus retains the nail scars in His glorified body (which, I assume, means that He is no longer omnipresent as the Father and the Spirit are, and as He the Son was from eternity past, until His Incarnation), as a reminder for all eternity of what He did for us.<BR/><BR/>I removed the word "in," in my article, from the section you quoted. Even though I copied and pasted that from another website, I usually like to fix up spelling errors and incorrect grammar...unless I am quoting someone else's comment; then I will leave the spelling errors, because I want to quote them exactly.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146601338956701881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3096670002191538774.post-61262194127853618462008-07-11T23:08:00.000-04:002008-07-11T23:08:00.000-04:00The primary biblical reason that in Jesus does not...<EM>The primary biblical reason that in Jesus does not have a sinful nature is because Jesus is both God and man in one person.</EM><BR/><BR/>Agreed, Jeff. This is another indication that a human being can be significantly free without the ability/option to do evil via nature and resulting choice. Perhaps there is more freedom in very greatly understanding and experiencing evil and rejecting it, as Jesus the man did, and as we shall do in the culminated Kingdom.Dr. Russell Norman Murrayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06703130625190233670noreply@blogger.com