Deuteronomy 6:4 says, "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!"
The Hebrew word "echad" is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh," it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut. 6:4.
A different word, "yachid," the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, indisputably means an absolute numeric one. Anti-Trinitarians would naturally expect such a word to be commonly used of God, but it is never used to describe God.
Add to this plural pronouns like: "let US make man in OUR image" and Trinitarians have irrefutable evidence of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
We find exactly the same in the New Testament as we do in the Old, namely, a combination of words meaning unified versus numeric oneness being employed to describe God's oneness. While yachid is never used of God’s oneness in the Old Testament, the corresponding Greek word "mono" is used of God’s oneness in the New Testament. But this is exactly what Trinitarians would expect to be the case because there are three persons in the one God.
Perhaps one of the strongest arguments the Trinitarian can use in the discussion of the words "echad" and "yachid" is the fact that Jews, shortly after the rise of Christianity, removed "echad" from Deut. 6:4 and added in its place the word "yachid". If the use of "echad" instead of "yachid" in Deut. 6:4 gave no help to the early Christians in proving to the Jews that Yahweh of the Old Testament was a multi-personal God, then Jews would not have felt compelled to change the word. If it is really that insignificant, then they would have told us the argument Christians were using to prove the Trinity is invalid to native Hebrews who know and speak the language. But instead, the Jews responded by changing the word in Deut. 6:4 from the unified oneness (echad) to the numeric oneness (yachid).
Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 in Mk 12:29 and chose the "unified oneness" word "hen" which is the same word used by Jesus in Mt 19:5, "the two shall become one (hen) flesh. It is significant that Jesus did not use "mono" in Mk 12:29. The word "hen" directly corresponds to "echad" which was used in Deut 6:4. Both texts used "unified oneness" words rather than absolute numeric oneness to the exclusion of all others.
Five different words for "one" in the Bible:
Echad (OT) - (Unified one: Gen. 2:24; Deut. 6:4) (Absolute numeric one: Ezekiel 33:24) - Used of God’s oneness
Yachid (OT) - (Always absolute numeric one: Judges 11:34) - Never used of God’s oneness
Bad (OT) - (Absolute numeric one: Isaiah 37:20) - Used of God’s oneness
Hen (NT) - (Unified one: John 10:30; Matthew 19:5; Mk 12:29) (Absolute numeric one: Galatians 3:20) - Used of God’s oneness
Monos (NT) - (Absolute numeric one: Matthew 24:36; 1 Timothy 1:17) - Used of God’s oneness
Following are a number of Old Testament passages that are either directly quoted in the New Testament, or contain parallel thoughts:
Two shall become one flesh (Echad, Old Testament: Gen. 2:24) (Matt. 19:5)
God is one (Echad, Old Testament: Deut. 6:4) (Hen, New Testament: Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:6)
One people (Echad, Old Testament: Gen. 11:6; Gen. 34:16; Gen. 22) (Hen, New Testament: John 11:52; Gal. 3:28)
One heart (Echad, Old Testament: 2 Chron. 30:12; Jer. 32:39) (Hen, New Testament: Acts 4:32; Phil. 1:27; Phil. 2:2)
Two objects becoming one (Echad, Old Testament: sticks: Ezek. 37:17) (Hen, New Testament: flocks: John 10:16)
Assembly as one (Echad, Old Testament: Ezra 2:64) (Hen, New Testament: Romans 12:5, 15:6; 1 Cor. 12:5,12)
(the above information is from: Bible.ca)
Sunday, March 15, 2009
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«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 652 of 652The Bible talks about the everlasting Lake of Fire in Hell.
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:13-15)
As I think you said before, Nick, Hades is equivalent to the Hebrew “Sheol.”
Even Samuele Bacchiocchi (a Seventh-day Adventist author and theologian who denies conscious life after death) admits the word ‘Hades’ means punishment and not the grave in Luke 16 (though he incorrectly refers to it as a parable): "The word hades also occurs in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, but with a different meaning. While in some of the references we have just examined, hades refers to the grave or the realm of the dead, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it denotes the place of punishment for the ungodly (Luke 16:23)." (Immortality or Resurrection?, Samuele Bacchiocchi, Seventh-day Adventist, Ch 5: State of the Dead.)
Brown, Driver and Briggs based their A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (p. 982) on the work of Genesius, one of the greatest Hebrew scholars who ever lived. They define Sheol as: "The underworld... whither man descends at death" They trace the origin of Sheol to either sha-al, which means the spirit world to which mediums directed their questions to the departed, or Sha-al, which refers to the hollow place in the earth where the souls of men went at death. Langenscheidt's Hebrew/English Dictionary to the Old Testament (p.337) defines Sheol as: "netherworld, realm of the dead, Hades." The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia in volume IV, p.2761, defines Sheol as: "the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek: Hades." Keil and Delitzsch state that "Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death; it is an infinitive form from sha-al, to demand, the demanding, applied to the place where inexorably summons all men into its shade." [Commentaries On the Old Testament, Vol. l, p. 338] The lexicographical evidence is so clear that the great Princeton scholar, B.B. Warfield, stated that with modern Hebrew scholars, there is no "hesitation to allow with all heartiness that Israel from the beginning of its recorded history cherished the most settled conviction of the persistence of the soul in life after death....The body is laid in the grave and the soul departs to Sheol. [Selected Shorter Writings of Beniamin B. Warfield, pp. 339,345] (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p.72,73)
Sheol is a shadowy place or a place of darkness (Job 10:21,22; Ps. 143:3). Evidently it is another dimension, which is not exposed to the rays of the sun. It is viewed as being "down," "beneath the earth," or in "the lower parts of the earth" (Job 11:8; Isa. 44:23; 57:9; Ezek. 26:20; Amos 9:2). These figures of speech should not be literalized into an absurd cosmology. They merely indicate that Sheol is not a part of this world but has an existence of its own in another dimension. (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, p. 78-80)
In Luke 16, the rich man went to the "torment" compartment and the poor man went to the "comfort" compartment (‘Abraham’s bosom’). Between these two compartments is mentioned to be an "impassable gulf". Later rabbinic writers clearly taught that Sheol had two sections. The righteous were in bliss in one section, while the wicked were in torment in the other. (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, p. 78-80)
Hi there Jeff,
Greetings! I am still traveling for another week. In California seeing family and friends. I will try my best to make a comment here and there until I get back to Italy.
Looking at a couple comments you made: “Why does it say that there is no rest day or night in the following verse?"...he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:10-11)”
Revelation 14:10-11 speaks of some who are “tormented with fire and sulphur . . . And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever.” Does this prove eternal conscious torment in hellfire? Actually, all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke—the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction—that continues forever, not the fiery torment.
Furthermore, even if the angel is expressing an eternity of conscious suffering the fact remains that it is a hyperbolic, audible warning heard in a vision and this is precisely why no text in the apocalypse will ever prove an actual eternity of torment. For without any further clarity of the emblem’s correlation to reality, the images do not explain themselves by themselves – the actual details are left undisclosed hidden under symbolic language.
But putting all the pictures of the apocalypse together, as has been attempted, along with all the data from outside of the book, the probability that the meaning of the angelic message is an actual endless tormenting, and not death and destruction is effectively zero.
To understand Revelation 14:10-11 as depicting hell’s eternal torments, one has to ignore the context and setting of the judgment, ignore the details of the judgments in Chapter 16, and ignore the fact the judgments end in death. Further, one must ignore the genre of the passage and interpret allegory literally, maintain physical absurdities, and disregard similar language in the OT with matching language in the same book that clearly demonstrates the picture is one of destruction.
It would not be unwarranted then to state that the superior interpretation, amidst all the color of the apocalypse, is still not in favor of the literal hell-fire advocates, but found in terms of a tormenting punishment ending in destruction.
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-continuing
Similarly, you asked, “If annihilation is true, how could they be tormented forever and ever?: "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)”
Should this passage have found its way into any other book of scripture than the one it is in, you might have had a near impregnable “proof-text,” for this is the verbiage of ceaseless torments, and truly these are images of the orthodox dogma.
As it stands however, such language is native only to this book of allegory and hyperbole, being wholly absent from the plainer and calmer portions of Scripture. And this is the very point: was there any good reason, if the doctrine of “endless torment in hell” were true, Paul forgot to use this language?
If Peter believed it why did he not use equivalent descriptions? How did Luke or the writer of Hebrews, or John in his gospel and letters forget to similarly articulate such a danger? And would Jesus, believing this, fail to describe human fate in the same manner? How could they hide such a fate behind the words of death, destruction and perish which communicate something else?
And can there be any reason why the NT authors, having at their disposal the very language of the Revelator with which to teach endless tormenting explicitly, chose not to use it? There is only one answer that explains why and that is because none of them believed it. Such language belongs only to this genre of literature and such literature is not meant to be definitive or precise. That is why no text from it can or will ever ground the traditional
view of hell.
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-continuing
I would also like to include that in Bible times, jailers often cruelly tortured their prisoners, and so they were called “tormentors.” In one of his illustrations, Jesus spoke of a cruel slave as being “delivered to the jailers” (Greek, BASANISTES, which actually means “tormentors” and is so rendered in several translations). (Matthew 18:34)
So when Revelation speaks of the Devil and others as being “tormented . . . forever” in the lake of fire, it means that they will be “jailed” to all eternity in the second death of complete destruction. The Devil, the death inherited from Adam, and the unrepentant wicked all are spoken of as being destroyed eternally—“jailed” in the lake of fire.
What do you think the rest of the Bible says about the final outcome of Satan? Doesn’t it tell us he will be crushed; (Romans 20:20) and that Satan himself will "be brought to nothing." (Hebrews 2:14)
Everything else that is thrown into Gehenna, call it what you will, will receive permanent extinction, extermination, annihilation, destruction, eradication, obliteration, whatever...the destruction that belongs to the age to come will be final. The permanence of the result will be everlasting. It will have an unrecallable effect.
Oh last thing, you are correct that the “the valley of Hinnom,” was just outside the walls of Jerusalem where the Israelites sacrificed their children in the fire. We both know God was not happy about it, since it didn’t come up into his heart or mind, whether it was for pagan God or if it would have been dedicated to Him it was still despicable.
In time, good King Josiah had this valley made unfit to be used for such a horrible practice. (2 Kings 23:10) Obviously, then, by the time it was Jesus’ day it was turned into a huge garbage, or rubbish, dump and this is how the crowd he was speaking with knew it. Dead bodies of criminals unworthy of a burial were thrown in Gehenna, but no one was tortured there, burned their alive, and certainly not forever.
Respectfully,
Nick
Thanks, Nick. I'm not sure how many things you still have left to comment on, but I just want to toss in one question for the moment:
In Revelation 14:13, how can the dead be “happy” and find “rest” if there is no conscious awareness after death?
Hi Jeff,
How things been? Remember me? :) I know I’ve been M.I.A but we ended up staying in California longer than expected. Enjoyed the coast and seeing old friends and family. We got back to Italy this week and yesterday I reestablished our internet service. I almost forgot where we left off. Sometime this week I will go back and review what I have not commented on and your appreciated shared thoughts.
To answer your last question. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in more than one resurrection. There is a future one on earth. (Matthew 5:5; John 5:28, 29)
However, there are those who do go to heaven (we can discuss why and for what purpose sometime later) that are “happy” because at their death in the flesh they experience that instantaneous change from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality, from human to spirit, so that, without any sleep in death, they cease from their earthly labors and enter right into heavenly work with their Lord with whom they are joint heirs. They don’t have to wait!
That is why Paul could say, “We shall not all fall asleep in death (that is, remaining in the death state while awaiting a resurrection in the future), but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” (1 Corinthians 15:51, 52)
I am engaged in a number of discussions and need to get back to them as well, but I will come back to this one sometime this week with some more expressions. Better get ready for a meeting now,
Take care,
Nick
Hi, Nick.
Many Christians believe that "...but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" is talking about the Rapture.
Of course, as far as the Rapture, some Christians are pre-trib, some are mid-trib, some are post-trib, and others don't believe in a Rapture, though they do believe in the Second Coming of Christ.
I tend to believe in two resurrections as well. When a regenerated Christian dies, they go to Heaven. For example, Paul said that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. But it is my understanding that the Christian's spirit will go to Heaven then. Then, later, there will be a 2nd resurrection, and at that resurrection, the Christian's body will be taken from the earth, transformed into a body like Jesus had after His resurrection (which apparently could go through walls, etc.), and their body will be rejoined with their spirit.
Hi Jeff,
I just wanted to say "hi" and that I haven't forgot you. Been traveling around alot and now heading to Rome for a convention. I had been spending much time involved in other projects and trying to get caught up on over a hundred responses but will get back to you hopefully next week when things get back to normal.
Take care and talk to you later,
Nick
Hi Nick,
I have been extremely busy as well for the past few weeks with work and training classes and studying, so I haven't even had time to post a new blog article. So right now, I don't have much time myself, and have not had much time to spend online.
Hi Jeff,
Sounds like you have a lot going on. This has not been a great couple of months for me. I was bitten by a dog in the face, (there goes my modeling career.) And now I got punched in the throat a few days ago and it is pretty serious. I had a hard time swallowing and now I sound like Marge Simpson. Hopefully my voice comes back soon.
I went back to read some of your recent shared comments. I’ll just make some brief comments on some Trinity statements you made and some on the Bible “sheol.”
You said: “God exists as a tri-unity, and all three "Persons" are co-equal. However, the Holy Spirit glorifies the Son, the Son glorifies the Father, and the Father glorifies the Son.”
If God’s holy spirit is the third person of the Trinity why don’t you mention the Holy spirit receiving anything, any glory, any worship???
You also told me: “I may have said this before, but, as a very imperfect and very limited example, the human body is one body. Yet your arm is submissive to your brain; however, both the arm and the brain are part of one body.”
You are describing a “modalistic” view of God. This is not the true Trinitarian concept. My arm is not a person with separate personality. Neither is my head or my leg. Certainly my brain is not “another person of Nick.” It doesn’t work.
Then you told me: “A wife is, biblically, submissive to her husband, yet both are co-equal.”
Here is the thing, 1 Peter 3:7 refers to a wife as “the weaker vessel.” A husband and a wife are not “co-equal” in power. The teaching of the Trinity says that God and Christ are “co-powerful.” Not true. One thing for sure, my wife and I have different personalities and different names because we are completely different individuals. Trinitarians teach Jesus is Jehovah. Another false teaching.
Jesus is the servant of the God of Israel. (Acts 3:13) My wife and I do not worship each other. We worship God just like Jesus does.
Respectfully,
Nick
Hello Jeff,
Regarding “sheol” you sent me a quote from Robert Morey, “Those in Sheol do not have any wisdom or knowledge about what is happening in the land of the living.”
The Bible doesn’t teach that. It tells us that those in Sheol “no nothing” period. It says nothing about being conscious in Sheol but unware of what is going on in the “land of the living.”
Many Bible scholars understand “Sheol” very differently then what Morey is proposing.
After a robust study of death in the Bible, S.B Marrow in his book “ATHANASIA/ANASTASIS: The Road not Taken” (page 575) concludes: “Death is quite simply the end of all life. In the Bible, unlike our liturgy of the dead, vita tollitur non mutatur, life is taken away, not altered…Death is never partial, but total. Between being dead and being alive, no other possibility exists, The ‘I’, both as subject and object of relationships, ceases to be.”
He homes in to the NT to argue: “In the NT, when the ‘I’ dies then all of me dies: my body, my soul and my spirit. In death, none of me and nothing of me survives.”
J. Burns in his book, “The Mythology of Death in the O.T” (page 339) backs this statement up: “We may say that the Old Testament positively asserts that death is the end of life, existence in Sheol is in no sense an ‘afterlife’ but death.”
A. Johnson in his book, “The Vitality of the Individual in the Thought of Ancient Israel,” (p. 93) agrees that Sheol in the OT mean “virtual extinction.”
V. Hannah in “Death, Immortality and Resurrection” (page 245) points out that dualists redefine death as ‘continued existence’ whereas “the simple but profound meaning of death is extinction of life, a definition which takes terms like ‘perish’ (1 Corinthians 15:18; John 3:10) and ‘destruction’ (Matt 10:28, 2 Thess. 1:9) more seriously.”
R. L Hall in “Dualism and Christianity: A Reconsideration” (p. 51) perceives this to be Paul’s view: “Paul takes death utterly seriously. There is no release of the essence of the self, the soul, from the body, that is no claim that the true self really doesn’t die.”
S. Tugwell in “Human Immortality and the Redemption of Death” (p. 163) exposes the fallacy of redefining death along dualist lines when he points out: “ Christian tradition is remarkably uninterested in claiming immortality for the soul by right, and the language of the Bible and the liturgy is, if anything, inimical to such a claim.”
Charles Davis says of Hebrew anthropology, “They did not make our distinction between body and soul. For them it was the whole man who suffered death.” (The Resurrection of the Body; p. 99)
J. Heller clarifies the OT view of ‘soul’ and Sheol: “There is no thought in the Old Testament that it is only the body which dies while the soul lives on in some disembodied condition… Sheol is in no sense life after death; it is simply a description of the condition of death.” (The Resurrection of Man; p. 224)
-continued
Nick,
Yeah, I am very busy right now, so I don't have much time to comment.
Bitten by a dog in the face and punched in the throat? Wow, that sounds really bad! I hope you heal up quickly!
As far as the Holy Spirit, I believe I mentioned in the past that there is voluntary submission in the Trinity: the Holy Spirit glorifies the Son, the Son glorifies the Father. And Jesus seemed to give special glory to the Holy Spirit when He said that to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. Baptism in the Bible is done in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But the Bible says to pray in the Name of Jesus.
As far as a comparison to the body, I've said before that there is no perfect earthly comparison to the Trinity, so any comparison is going to have flaws.
As far as the comparison to a husband and wife, what is meant is that both are human beings, and one is not greater than the other. Yet, the Bible says that the wife is to submit to the husband. Similarly, with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one is not greater than the other, yet there is a voluntary submission. This is the comparison I was trying to make. As far as the wife being physically weaker than the husband, that is pushing the comparison too far, and as I've said already, there is no perfect comparison. Some women are physically stronger than some men, and some women are smarter than some men. But those details are not part of the comparison I was making. When you get too detailed with it, the comparison falls apart, because again, there is no perfect earthly comparison.
And again, those in Hell are not conscious of what is happening on the earth. With the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man was not aware of what was happening on the earth.
I think we are going in circles, Nick. I keep making the same points over and over. I cannot make you see the light; only the Holy Spirit can. May the Holy Spirit prepare your heart and show you that the only way to salvation is to trust in the shed blood of Jesus, in His death and resurrection. Not by works, lest any man should boast, but by faith in the Son of God...by faith in Jesus, Who is God the Son.
Your works will not save you, Nick. No amount of door-knocking or filling out cards or anything else concerning your own deeds will get you into Heaven. Your best 'good works' are as a woman's menstruating rags, according to the Bible, in God's eyes. Only by surrendering your life to Christ Jesus as your Lord, your God, and your Savior will you ever enter into Heaven.
Nick,
Galatians 3:10 says, “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” (KJV) This verse shows that all who are trusting in their works are under the curse of the law and that there is no hope on the ground of the law for anyone who does not “continue in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” James 2:10 states, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” In other words, unless you are perfect, you deserve Hell. Galatians 2:16 says, “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” Romans 3:19-20 says, “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” According to these verses, by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in God’s sight. Matthew 5:20 says, “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” All these passages show the kind of righteousness God demands and that no man’s righteousness comes up to God’s standard, and that if a man wishes to be saved he must find some other means of salvation than by his own deeds.
Luke 16:15 states, “And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.” Romans 2:16 says, “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.” Your secret sins will be revealed when you stand before God to be judged.
1 Samuel 16:7 says, “But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.” These passages show that God looks at the heart. He is not looking at your door knocking, or at the meetings you attend, or at time sheets that you fill out. Whatever your outward life may be, your heart will not stand the scrutiny of God’s eye. If you say you are doing the best that you can, or that you are doing more good than evil, then look at Matthew 22:37-38: “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.” If you think you are doing more good than evil, you are greatly mistaken. Far from doing more good than evil, do you realize that you have broken the first and greatest of God’s laws?
Hebrews 11:6 states, “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” John 6:29 says, “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” These verses show that the one thing that God demands is faith, and without that, it is impossible to please God. John 16:9 says, “Of sin, because they believe not on me.” This shows that unbelief in Christ (as God the Son, as the Lord of all, and the only One Who can save us from our sins by His atoning death on the cross) is the greatest sin. John 3:36 says, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” This shows that the question of eternal life depends solely on a man’s accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ. You may think you are very good, but do you know that you are committing the most awful sin in God’s sight that a man can commit? Hebrews 10:28-29 warns, “He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” This does not mean merely honoring Jesus. This means surrendering to Jesus as God, as Savior, as Supreme Lord, as Master, as King. The sin that brings the heaviest punishment is that of treading under foot the Son of God.
According to the following articles, "There is a long history of suicides within the Jehovah Witness Watchtower organization."
Why would that be?
Jehovah Witness Suicide
Part 1: Why do Jehovah's Witnesses contemplate suicide?
Jehovahs Witnesses suicide rate 5 to 10 times above average
Hello Jeff,
For some reason, the second part of my "sheol" letter did not got through.
-continuing
Yes, even Bacchiocchi feels the weight of the Scripture is that “death is the extinction of life for the whole person.” (Immortality or Resurrection? A Biblical Study on Human Nature and Destiny; p. 149)
I’m sure you could counter with what others think about “sheol” but Jehovah’s Witnesses do enjoy robust Scriptural and scholarly support for the conviction that death is “the death of the whole man.”
In the light of Genesis 3:4, any claim that a person dies yet does not TRULY die is ultimately diabolical in origin. Sheol and hades are one and the same thing. It will empty out the dead. Sheol or hades does not last forever but, like death, will be brought to nothing, be swallowed up forever, be destroyed, be thrown into the lake of Fire.
Hell is not thrown into Hell as you think. The Lake of fire means something or symbolizes something, “the second death” permanent-irreversible destruction.
Jeff, you told me: “The Bible talks about the everlasting Lake of Fire in Hell.” Then you quoted this text:
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:13-15) As I think you said before, Nick, Hades is equivalent to the Hebrew “Sheol.”
Look closely, what happens to death or “sheol/hades (hell) KJV” Hell is not thrown into hell is it? There is a vast difference between the common grave of mankind “sheol/hades” and the lake of fire (Gehenna). People can and will come out of Hades but not Gehenna which is the lake of fire. The Lake of fire means the SECOND DEATH. That is what it symbolizes.
Sincerely,
Nick
Hello Jeff,
Catching up to some other comments you made. You said:
"Even Samuele Bacchiocchi (a Seventh-day Adventist author and theologian who denies conscious life after death) admits the word ‘Hades’ means punishment and not the grave in Luke 16 (though he incorrectly refers to it as a parable): "The word hades also occurs in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, but with a different meaning. While in some of the references we have just examined, hades refers to the grave or the realm of the dead, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus it denotes the place of punishment for the ungodly (Luke 16:23)." (Immortality or Resurrection?, Samuele Bacchiocchi, Seventh-day Adventist, Ch 5: State of the Dead.)"
Bacchiocchi believes: “The first death is a temporary sleep because it is followed by the resurrection. The second death is permanent and irreversible extinction because there is no awakening.”
The grave (hades) is the place of punishment. It is where the dead end up. The wages sin pays is death. Good and bad, small and great all go there. It is not everlasting punish-ING. It is not a conscious punishment. When Adam and Eve sinned what was there punishment? Where did they go? They went back to “the dust.”
Regarding the parable of “the Rich Man and Lazarus” have you ever even read what Bacchiocchi has said on this? He goes on to state: “A literal interpretation of the narrative breaks down under the weight of its own absurdities and contractions.” (p. 173)
He realizes that a “drop of water” would not really quench the Rich Man’s thirst. Are “heaven” and “hell” really within speaking distance? Those quick to promote the parable as literal truth about hell are unlikely to be as quick to grant the literal truth of these anomalies. People completely miss the point of what Jesus was trying to illustrate.
Hello Jeff,
Looking back at some of your other references and a lexicon quote on "sheol." Some lexicons import the theology of their editors, rather than just relying on hard evidence of how words were used in ancient times. And some of the older lexicons are based on an incomplete understanding of Hebrew and related languages, which understanding came, for the most part, after the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Ebla tablets, etc.
What should matter to Christians is how the Bible itself uses the word Sheol, and the Bible never attaches any conscious, continuing activity with Sheol.
The book, Jewish Views of the Afterlife, by Rabbi Simcha Paull Raphael (Jason Aronson Press, 1996) says:
"In patriarchal and Mosaic times, even in the days of the Israelite tribal confederacy, the Bible has nothing to say about the fate of the individual after death, and there is certainly no notion of an individual afterlife experience for the soul...nor any idea of a soul separate from the body." (p. 43)
"The etymological origins of the word Sheol are not very clear. One possible derivation is from the Hebrew root shaal, 'to ask.'...A second possible derivation is from the Hebrew word sho'al, 'a hollow hand'; thus, Sheol is a hollow place (beneath the ground). However, neither of these etymological conjectures are considered definitive." (p. 52)
"It is not a realm of torment or punishment; it is simply the domain of the dead. The negative, punitive aspects that later characterized Sheol were almost completely lacking in its original conception. Therefore, rich and poor, kings and sinners, all went to Sheol upon their death." (p. 53)
Later, ideas from pagan religions entered the concept of Sheol among some Jews, but those pagan ideas are not found in the Bible. I’ll get back to you on other comments you made and recently expressed as I have time.
Take care,
Nick
Hi Jeff,
The Internet has become a cesspool of anti-Witness propaganda.
Just look at the source: these are "anti-cult" groups keep trying to find anything and everything to throw at us.
Consider the so-called "evidence" from one article mentioned:
"There is a long history of suicides within the Jehovah Witness Watchtower organization. Some experts have estimated the rate of suicides associated with the society to be five to ten times the rate of the general population. The exact number of suicides is impossible to obtain for a variety of reasons."
Who are the "experts"? What is their "estimation" based on if "the exact number of suicides is impossible to obtain"?
In short, this is just anti-Witness propaganda, based on absolutely nothing.
Of course, some people want to believe such things about us, and will grab anything, whether it is factual or not. And there is one psychologist, an ex-Witness named Jerry Bergman, who loves to use his "credentials" to bash Jehovah's Witnesses. Many of these "anti-cult" people get their information from him and quote him as an authority. But he obviously has an agenda of his own, which is to tear down the Jehovah's Witnesses.
In these critical last days, all people are facing severe problems, and Jehovah's people are not exempt. But it is not our religion that is causing any distress that we may have. It is living in an alien, hostile, devil-controlled world, while trying to do our best to serve Jehovah.
But there is no proof that suicides among Jehovah's Witnesses are higher than among any other group of people. If anything, the actual number is likely to be far less. Statements claiming otherwise rest upon nothing but assertions, not facts.
"But we think it proper to hear from you what your thoughts are, for truly as regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against." (Acts 28:22)
Sincerely,
Nick
Hi Jeff,
Many of your comments have been recycled a million times about Jehovah’s Witnesses. However, I do agree with the all the Scriptures you shared.
It would be good to remember that many of those inspired quotes cited were written to Jewish Christians who had a tendency to revert to practicing the dead works of the Mosaic law. Paul also had to remind such ones not to return to dead works. (Galatians 4:21; 5:1) Included in such “dead works” are works of self-justification.
Since all persons are sinners, all have engaged in “dead works.” For this reason as long as they remain unrepentant, they cannot have a clean conscience before God. However, by repenting from “dead works” and striving to live a life in harmony with God’s will, a person can, on the basis of faith in Jesus sin-atoning sacrifice, have his conscience cleansed.
These Jewish converts to Christianity learned that works for one’s self-justification could never give them life. They were “dead” in that they could not provide salvation for anyone and had now been superseded by works of faith.
This does not mean that there are not many proper Christian works. These are not works done with a view of “earning” the reward of life, as if God “owed” it to us. They are works of faith, proving that one believes in God and his Son and that God rewards his servants.
If we have real faith in God as a rewarder, others should be able to see our faith at work in our conforming to his ways and even our conduct. True faith will prompt us to apply God’s Word in life and will move us to action.
If we are motivated by love, then we will do all we can in God’s service, which would include loyally answering in love and obedience Jesus command to “Go and make disciples…” (Matthew 28:19) And to “search out deserving ones.” (Matthew 10:11)
Peter wrote that if godly qualities, including love, “exist in you and overflow, they will prevent you from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:8)
Jehovah’s Witnesses remain very active in the international preaching and teaching campaign. (Matthew 24:14) It is a privilege to follow the apostolic method and go house to house witnessing. (Acts 20:20)
While others make excuses, we will continue to make disciples. Ridicule all you want, it is what TRUE Christians do.
Respectfully,
Nick
Hi Jeff,
The Internet has become a cesspool of anti-Witness propaganda.
Consider the source: these are "anti-cult" groups keep trying to find anything and everything to throw at us.
Consider the so-called "evidence" from one article mentioned:
"There is a long history of suicides within the Jehovah Witness Watchtower organization. Some experts have estimated the rate of suicides associated with the society to be five to ten times the rate of the general population. The exact number of suicides is impossible to obtain for a variety of reasons."
Who are the "experts"? What is their "estimation" based on if "the exact number of suicides is impossible to obtain"?
In short, this is just anti-Witness propaganda, based on absolutely nothing.
Of course, some people want to believe such things about us, and will grab anything, whether it is factual or not. And there is one psychologist, an ex-Witness apostate named Jerry Bergman, who loves to use his "credentials" to bash Jehovah's Witnesses. Many of these "anti-cult" people get their information from him and quote him as an authority. But he obviously has an agenda of his own, which is to tear down the truth.
In these critical last days, all people are facing severe problems, and Jehovah's people are not exempt. But it is not our religion that is causing any distress that we may have. It is living in an alien, hostile, devil-controlled world, while trying to do our best to serve Jehovah.
But there is no proof that suicides among Jehovah's Witnesses are higher than among any other group of people. If anything, the actual number is likely to be far less. Statements claiming otherwise rest upon nothing but assertions, not facts.
Sincerely,
Nick
Hi Jeff,
Looking back at another question you asked about. It was a good one, you asked:
“If a Jehovah's Witnesses believes that he ceases to exist when he dies and that he will be resurrected at the Judgment Day, then is he really being resurrected? In other words, if he was alive and then has ceased to exist, he is in the same state he was before he was created. That is, he isn't. He has no existence. He is gone. The only remnant of this person would be in the memory of God (not counting family and friends, etc.). Only God would know if this Jehovah's Witness was good enough for Paradise Earth. If he was, then the reward would be a new creation of someone in the exact image of the Jehovah's Witness who previously lived and did all the works mandated by the Watchtower Organization. But, it wouldn't be the exact same person, because that person ceased to exist, and there is no continuity, no continuance of the person, since he has ceased to be.
Therefore, on Judgment day, how can he be resurrected? That is, how is he, as the same person, resurrected when he doesn't exist anymore? Is he the exact same person or has God make an exact copy of the person upon which to shower the blessings of Paradise Earth?”
Could I ask you, “If God could make Adam from the dust, don’t you think he could resurrect him from the dust if he chooses?” Think about it. Adam was formed from the elements of the ground. Of course, these elements have no personality and are incapable of conscious activity or thought.
-continued
-continuing
However, when God organized these elements into a harmonious body and energized that body with a life-force, a distinct personality came into being, a man having the ability to think and to reason as well as to transmit life through procreation. (Genesis 2:7)
Note that what made Adam an individual was not the substance making up his body. Rather, it was what God did to the elements of the ground. So the resurrection does not depend on the preservation or the reconstruction of the molecules in the individual’s body prior to his death. Even during our lifetime, the molecules making up our bodies constantly undergo change. Even the molecules making up your body today are completely different from what they were about seven years ago.
Nevertheless, you are still the same person and so am I. Likewise, whether a person is raised to human or spirit life, his body will carry within it all the God-given characteristics that make him the same individual who died. He will possess the full identity of his former life. (1 Corinthians 15:36-49)
Being infinite in wisdom and perfect in memory, Jehovah God can easily resurrect a person, remembering the life pattern of dead persons. Their personality traits, their personal history, and all the details of their identity is not a problem for him. (Job 12:13; Isaiah 40:26)
Humans can record voices and pictures of people, and play them back long after the people have died. But Jehovah through Christ can, and actually will, bring back to life all persons who are living in his memory! He knows our makeup, our DNA, every hair on our head.
Regarding the spiritual resurrection, the Bible uses the illustration of plant seeds and says: “God gives it a body just as it has pleased him.” Yes, he provides what is fitting and needed. (1 Corinthians 15:35-44) We can expect the same of the earthly resurrection.
Respectfully,
Nick
Hi Jeff,
I can tell you have been in much pain in the past experiencing many negative, distressful emotions by your comments below:
“I was just now thinking about annihilation, and sort of meditating on the idea, so I just wanted to jot down some ponderings on the subject, unusual though they may be. When I was young, there were a couple or so times when I wished I had never been born. At those low moments in my life, if someone had offered me annihilation, I might have gladly accepted it. After all, if you totally cease to exist, then you have no more responsibility, no more worries, no more troubles, and no more cares. And, if I had been some horribly evil person, like Hitler or something, and I just had a desire to kill and hurt people, I imagine I might prefer simply ceasing to exist over living for a thousand years under the dictatorial rule and domination of Jesus, especially if that meant I had to act good all the time. And I imagine I might consider living for the rest of eternity on earth pretty boring after a while. I mean, getting to play with lions and other wild beasts might be fun for a while, but who really wants to stay on this earth for the rest of eternity? Sure, there is not supposed to be any crime, murder, hatred, etc. any more, but I've already lived on this earth all my life, and just because all the crime and pain goes away doesn't necessarily mean it won't be boring after the first several hundred years or so. I imagine someone could even possibly start to yearn to be annihilated after several thousand years, or maybe several millions of years, of living on this earth.”
First of all, I am sorry to hear you felt that way. Regarding your feelings, I wonder if you really think that had Adam and Eve stayed faithful and if they stuck to God’s original purpose to “become fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it” (Genesis 1:28) they would have been bored with what our loving Father had in store for them? God promises in the future he will SATISFY our wholesome needs and desires, for Psalm 145:16 says of God: “You are opening your hand and satisfying the desire of every living thing.”
-continuing
-continuing
Some persons, like yourself, have questioned whether or not living forever on the earth would become boring. They may point out the monotonous life of many retired people who have little to do but sit and stare at the television screen.
If that is how you feel, consider what astronomer Robert Jastrow said when asked if everlasting life would be a blessing or a curse. Jastrow replied: “It would be a blessing to those who have curious minds and an endless appetite for learning. The thought that they have forever to absorb knowledge would be very comforting for them. But for others who feel they have learned all there is to learn and whose minds are closed, it would be a dreadful curse. They’d have no way to fill their time.”
Whether you would find everlasting life boring or not depends much on your attitude. If you have ‘a curious mind and an endless appetite for learning,’ think of what you could accomplish in the fields of art, music, architecture, gardening, or whatever worthy pursuits interest you.
Eternal life on earth would provide wonderful prospects for developing your potential in various fields of endeavor. Right now, we don’t even come close to using the full potential of our human brain. It remains virtually untapped.
-continuing
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Being able to show and experience love forever would make eternal life satisfying and worth living. We are created with the capacity for showing love, and we thrive when we feel loved. Sharing real love brings deep satisfaction that does not fade with the passing of time.
As I said before, imagine welcoming back your dad in the coming resurrection. Will you ever stop loving him, wanting to be in his company? How about your family now? Would you ever for a moment think, “I’m tired of their company and loving them?”
Living forever would offer an endless opportunity to cultivate love not only for fellow humans but especially for God. “If anyone loves God,” said the apostle Paul, “this one is known by him.” (1 Corinthians 8:3)
What a wonderful prospect to know and to be known by the Sovereign of the universe! Furthermore, there is no end to learning about our loving Creator. How, then, could everlasting life be boring and unrewarding?
An eternity of happiness lies before those who love God and Christ no matter where we are. There will be nothing boring about everlasting life in Paradise. In fact, life will get more interesting with the passing of time, for there is no limit to the knowledge of Jehovah God. (Romans 11:33)
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-continuing
In the Paradise that God will restore, he promises man “exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.” (Psalm 37:11) Such a life will give mankind the opportunity to do what we can now only dream about. God’s inspired Word tell us “mankind will never find out the work that the true God has made from the start to the finish. (Ecclesiastes 3:11)
Jehovah will also reveal new instructions, new scrolls, suited to mankind’s changed circumstances. (Revelation 20:12) It will be exciting to hear them and find out what God is telling us. We know that God will also make “all things new.” (Revelation 21:5) We stay tuned to see what he will reveal. Who knows maybe things that have been extinct in the past. Who knows exactly but it will be fab!
The prophecy of Isaiah where it tells us there will be peace among men and animals will not be fun for awhile but will be very satisfying as well. For example, how many animals, plants and insects can you name or describe from personal experience? My wife and I just came back from South Africa on a Safari. What we experienced changed us forever. We didn’t even see a slice, or fraction of what God has made for us to enjoy.
I imagined for a moment what being in the New Earth will be like when we were playing with one month old lion cubs with friends.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=IT&feature=email&v=w8N--dOtTCI
These little guys are just one of literally thousands of fascinating animals and subjects that intrigue us. Life will not be boring or humdrum. We will not have to deal with the spirit of this world and its selfish way in the new world. I hope we experience it together, I really do. Perhaps we can enjoy a meal. What is your favorite food? Do you ever get tired of eating it? I betcha you don’t and probably never will.
Sincerely,
Nick
Hi Jeff,
Haven't talked in awhile. Thinks been good? Was curious, how do you feel about Christmas?
Let me know your thoughts if you get a chance.
Nick
Hi Nick,
I have been busy working 10 hours a day and more, so I have not really had time to devote to my blog for quite some time now.
As far as Christmas, it is largely no longer about Christ, but has become commercialized, and is about buying things for people who don't really need it and don't really want it. Santa Claus has replaced any focus on Christ, or Christmas has been reduced to being about 'spending time with family' or about 'good will' rather than about worshiping Christ.
The Lake of fire means the SECOND DEATH. That is what it symbolizes.
Yes, the Lake of Fire is referred to as the Second Death. The first death is the physical death, when a man's soul and spirit are separated from his body. The second death is a physical and spiritual death, suffering in the Lake of Fire for all eternity.
Psalm 9:17 warns, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God." "Hell" is not just the grave. If "hell" were only referring to the "grave," then why would God say that the wicked shall be turned into hell? Do not also the righteous go to the same grave, if "hell" just means grave?
Jesus said in Matthew 25:41, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire..." "Everlasting" means forever. Jesus said again in Mark 9:45-46, "...to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Biblically, Hell is a place of woeful suffering and eternal torment.
Your mistake is thinking that death is the end of existence for humans. Animals, plants, fish, etc. presumably have no soul, but when God created man, He breathed into him an eternal soul, and therefore, death is not the cessation of being. God created man to live forever.
In addition, as I think I have stated in the past, if man merely ceased to exist completely, there would be no real justice, and God could not truly be said to be a just God. For a person to murder hundreds or thousands of people, or to rape and kill many women, or to rape and horribly kill small children, then to simply cease to exist himself, is not justice. That person would be getting away with murder, literally. In comparison, he would merely be receiving a slap on the wrist, compared to the horrible tortures he imposed on others. God cannot be said to be a just God and annihilationism be true at the same time.
He realizes that a “drop of water” would not really quench the Rich Man’s thirst.
I don't think the Rich Man truly expected his thirst to be quenched. When you are in that much pain, one drop of water would be like a miracle. Years ago, after hiking with a group for 5 hours, we stopped and had a few crackers with cheese on them. That was better than any steak, lobster, or the most expensive meal I have ever eaten. That was probably the best thing I have ever eaten in my entire life. When you are that hungry or tired, or when you are in horrible agony, comfort from the smallest thing is magnified far greater than it would normally be. I hope you can grasp this, Nick.
Regarding the Rich Man and Lazarus, would Jesus use false doctrine to teach His message?
However, by repenting from “dead works” and striving to live a life in harmony with God’s will, a person can, on the basis of faith in Jesus sin-atoning sacrifice, have his conscience cleansed.
Don't you see the contradiction in that, Nick? You talk about repenting from "dead works," yet you talk about "striving to live a life in harmony with God's will." Don't you see that all you are doing is going back to those same dead works? Your works can never, ever, ever make you right with God, no matter how hard you try.
Jehovah’s Witnesses remain very active in the international preaching and teaching campaign. (Matthew 24:14) It is a privilege to follow the apostolic method and go house to house witnessing. (Acts 20:20)
While others make excuses, we will continue to make disciples. Ridicule all you want, it is what TRUE Christians do.
Mormons do the same thing. And Muslims, though they don't go house-to-house, are incredibly effective and active when it comes to proselytizing, and they have a very effective plan.
Unfortunately, most true Christians in America, largely because of prosperity, wealth, materialism, laziness, selfishness, self-centeredness, lack of concern, etc., do not actively participate in witnessing (though Christians in most other countries are incredibly active in witnessing, often at great sacrifice, and even at the point of mortal danger and threat of death).
I myself have gone door-to-door, to the mall, outside a college football stadium just before a game, to parking lots, in stores, to festivals and fairs, etc., and have gone witnessing. Unfortunately, most American Christians tend to go to church on Sunday mornings just to sit there for an hour or so and be entertained. Some Christians go 2 or maybe 3 times a week to church. Others are actively involved in home Bible studies. But too few Christians really have a burden for souls to be saved from Hell, and very few (again, I'm talking about America and probably the West, *not* about Christians in other countries) care to go out to the streets to tell other people about Jesus. They are content to stay within the four walls of their local church. The Christians in America are spiritually immature, compared to Christians in countries like China, for example, where they have to undergo real physical persecution.
Could I ask you, “If God could make Adam from the dust, don’t you think he could resurrect him from the dust if he chooses?”
No, because if there was no soul or spirit that continued to exist, then it would not be a resurrection. It would be a re-creation, and God would be starting from scratch again. It would be a copy, and not a re-continuation.
Whether you would find everlasting life boring or not depends much on your attitude.
If that's the case, then anyone with the wrong attitude would find "Paradise" on earth to be nothing of the sort.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=IT&feature=email&v=w8N--dOtTCI
Nice video.
Perhaps we can enjoy a meal. What is your favorite food? Do you ever get tired of eating it? I betcha you don’t and probably never will.
I don't really have one favorite food, but I know that Heaven will be far more unbelievable and incredible and spectacular than just enjoying your favorite food. And I do expect to see and be united with those relatives and friends who were saved. From reading about near-death experiences where people have stated they saw a glimpse of Heaven, they said they had no desire at all to come back, because it was so incredible there. And of course there have been others who saw a glimpse of Hell before they died, and it was very obviously a horrifying thing to them. Some claim to have visited or seen a glimpse of Hell, and they, too, have said it was a horrifying, terrible experience. And many times, those reporting afterlife experiences reveal things that were happening around them that there was no possible way they could have known, unless their spirit had truly departed from their body and seen the things which were happening around their unconscious (sometimes legally dead) body.
Hi Jeff,
Sounds like you have been working hard. Hope you get some rest. We can correspond on occasion as you have time. I have been having interesting discussions with Muslims lately and enjoying our public ministry.
Regarding your question on Psalms 9:17 when I put my pointer over that verse it says it this way, “The wicked return to the grave,c all the nations that forget God.” (NIV)
I think this translation conveys this correctly and is self-explanatory.
We already spoke at length that “everlasting fire” signifies destruction. The fire is everlasting and cast in it is destroyed forever. Just as the cities Sodom and Gomorrah underwent “the judicial punishment of everlasting fire” (Jude 7), so will those who disobey God and Christ. Those cities are not still burning but the outcome of God’s judgment is everlasting!
You told me:
“Your mistake is thinking that death is the end of existence for humans. Animals, plants, fish, etc. presumably have no soul, but when God created man, He breathed into him an eternal soul, and therefore, death is not the cessation of being. God created man to live forever.”
Yes, God created man with the potential to live forever because we are made “in his image.” But again, a life that would not end was not automatic. What was the first man and woman told would be THE PENALTY for their disobedience? What would be the outcome of their sin?
I wanted to mention that animals, birds, etc.. are souls!
“Insight on the Scriptures"- volume 2 p. 1005
Earth’s First Souls. The initial occurrences of ne′phesh are found at Genesis 1:20-23. On the fifth creative “day” God said: “‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls [ne′phesh] and let flying creatures fly over the earth . . . ’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul [ne′phesh] that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind.” Similarly on the sixth creative “day” ne′phesh is applied to the “domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth” as “living souls.”—Ge 1:24.
After man’s creation, God’s instruction to him again used the term ne′phesh with regard to the animal creation, “everything moving upon the earth in which there is life as a soul [literally, in which there is living soul (ne′phesh)].” (Ge 1:30) Other examples of animals being so designated are found at Genesis 2:19; 9:10-16; Leviticus 11:10, 46; 24:18; Numbers 31:28; Ezekiel 47:9. Notably, the Christian Greek Scriptures coincide in applying the Greek psy•khe′ to animals, as at Revelation 8:9; 16:3, where it is used of creatures in the sea.
Thus, the Scriptures clearly show that ne′phesh and psy•khe′ are used to designate the animal creation lower than man. The same terms apply to man.
You also said:
“In addition, as I think I have stated in the past, if man merely ceased to exist completely, there would be no real justice, and God could not truly be said to be a just God.”
What do you think of Obadiah 16?
I was given more thought to your recent strange argument. It can be proven that Sheol means the grave everywhere else in the Bible, so why wouldn't it mean grave at Psalm 9:17?
The verse says nothing about punishment or fire, just that the wicked will go there.
Actually, the Hebrew says the wicked will be "returned" [yashuv] to Sheol. We are dust and return to the dust at death. We did not come from a fiery hell. The King James Version is inaccurate in saying "turned."
The New International Version and others get Psalm 9:17 right:
"The wicked return to the grave, all the nations that forget God."
"The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God." -- English Standard Version
"The wicked will return to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God." -- New American Standard Bible
"The wicked shall return to Sheol -- all the nations that forget God." -- Holman Christian Standard Bible
Even those who are not Jehovah's Witnesses realize that this verse is not talking about a fiery hell.
True, the righteous also return to sheol, but we have the hope of resurrection and eternal life thereafter.
The choice set before mankind is not eternal life or eternal punishment, but life or death. And the dead "know nothing at all."
Nick,
What was the first man and woman told would be THE PENALTY for their disobedience? What would be the outcome of their sin?
Besides the cursing of the ground, etc., the most obvious penalty was physical death. God said in Genesis 3, "in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return....”
Paul said, “Therefore, as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned” (Romans 5:12).
Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Of course, Adam and Eve did not die instantly in physical death, because they obviously lived for many years afterward. However, their spiritual death was immediate. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.
When Jesus was hanging on the cross, He paid the price for us by dying on our behalf. Even though He is God, He still had to suffer to agony of a temporary separation from the Father due to the sin of world He was carrying on the cross. After three hours of supernatural darkness, He cried, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” (Mark 15:33-34). This spiritual separation from the Father was the result of the Son’s taking our sins upon Himself. That’s the impact of sin. Sin is the exact opposite of God and God had to turn away from His own Son at that point in time.
A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. The natural man, like Adam hiding in the garden, is isolated from God. When a person is born again, that spiritual death is reversed. Before salvation, we are dead (spiritually), but Jesus gives us life. “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Ephesians 2:1 NKJV). “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).
The book of Revelation speaks of a “second death,” which is a final (and eternal) separation from God.
Charles Taze Russell rejected Hell's reality because the biblical teaching on Hell was not a pleasant alternative.
All false religions and cults (with the exception of Islam) deny an eternal Hell. Similarly, all false religions and cults deny that Jesus is God Almighty, and deny (or distort, as in the case of Mormons) the Trinity.
I wanted to mention that animals, birds, etc.. are souls!
Yes, the word "soul" can be used in the sense of a living creature. However, that is not the sense that I was referring to. The word soul can also be used to describe something that is immortal and thus never dies. In speaking of Rachel’s death at the birth of her son, Moses wrote: “And it came to pass, as her soul was departing (for she died)” (Genesis 35:18). While Elijah was at the house of a widow in the city of Zarephath, the woman’s son died. But Elijah “cried unto Jehovah, and said..., ‘O Jehovah my God, I pray thee, let this child’s soul come into him again’” (1 Kings 17:21).
Hezekiah mentioned the fact that the soul survives the death of the body: “But thou hast in love to my soul (nephesh) delivered it from the pit of corruption” (Isaiah 38:17). When the apostle John was allowed to peer into the book “sealed with seven seals” (Revelation 5:1), he “saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God” (Revelation 6:9). Each of these passages is instructive of the fact that there exists within man a soul that survives the death of the body.
What do you think of Obadiah 16?
The promise in verse 16 of Obadiah that the nations “will drink and drink and be as if they had never been” speaks of an experience of divine wrath that never ends.
Hell is the Second Death because those in the Lake of Fire will be forgotten, alone, separated from God and from everyone else, without hope, and in that sense, it will be as if they had never been born. Their punishment will be eternal, forever and ever, and they will no longer have any fellowship with anyone. They will no longer have any companionship with anyone. They will be separated from everyone. They will be basically cast into the eternally-burning garbage dump, and will burn forever. I'm sure you've heard of the terms (often associated with zombies), "the living dead" or "the walking dead." Well, Hell will be the worst type of living death imaginable. They will be like garbage cast away, ignored and forgotten. Yet, they will suffer forever and ever, and they will be without hope and without escape.
was given more thought to your recent strange argument. It can be proven that Sheol means the grave everywhere else in the Bible, so why wouldn't it mean grave at Psalm 9:17?
Maybe it's strange to you because you haven't thought it through. If it only means the grave, why would it only say that the wicked go there? Everyone dies, not just the wicked. Think about it.
Hi Jeff,
There are so many points raised and some other ones we already went over but I will respond to all of your comments shortly.
After I said:
"It can be proven that Sheol means the grave everywhere else in the Bible, so why wouldn't it mean grave at Psalm 9:17?"
You told me:
"Maybe it's strange to you because you haven't thought it through. If it only means the grave, why would it only say that the wicked go there? Everyone dies, not just the wicked. Think about it."
Context, context, context. The Bible can speak of the wicked being put to death and as a result they go to the grave.
You simply cannot accept the fact that everyone goes to "sheol" not just the wicked.
God’s Word tells the living: “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
In the Bible, we find the first occurrence of the word “Sheol” at Genesis 37:35. Following the apparent loss of his beloved son Joseph, the patriarch Jacob refused to take comfort, declaring: “I shall go down mourning to my son into Sheol!”
Believing that his son was dead, Jacob desired to die and be in Sheol. Later, nine of Jacob’s older children wanted to take his youngest son, Benjamin, down to Egypt to find relief from the famine. However, Jacob refused, saying: “My son will not go down with you men, because his brother is dead and he has been left by himself. If a fatal accident should befall him on the way on which you would go, then you would certainly bring down my gray hairs with grief to Sheol.” (Genesis 42:36, 38)
These two references link death, not some kind of afterlife, with Sheol.
Nick, you are arguing in circles. Your eyes are blinded, your ears are deaf to the truth, just as the Pharisees were. You are in spiritual darkness, and you are spiritually dead. Your works cannot save you. If you were to die this very instant, you would spend eternity in Hell. You are not currently a part of the Kingdom of God, you do not know Jesus, and you do not know God. You reject the Savior for Who He is, and your unbelief is a sin against the remedy. The wrath of God is against you. If you were to die this very instant, God would say to you, "Depart from Me; I never knew you." You are spreading a false gospel, and you are a false teacher. You are deceived, and you are deceiving others---and one day you will greatly regret the fact that you have (albeit unknowingly) deceived others.
The Bible says not to cast your pearls before swine, and that is exactly what I feel that I am doing when I talk to you. In obedience to the Scripture, it seems that, if I follow what the Bible teaches, then I should stop wasting my time with someone who refuses to listen to the truth, and who rejects the light of Christ. Jesus did not try to witness to the Pharisees, because they rejected the truth, just as you do, and therefore it seems a waste of time trying to witness to you, when you consistently reject the truth of the gospel. Arguing in circles is a waste of time, and it seems that biblically, I should spend my time instead trying to witness to those who are willing to hear the truth of the gospel, not to those who consistently, constantly and habitually reject it. May you one day come to see that the Watchtower is deceiving you.
If, however, you are indeed one of the Elect, meaning that, if your name was chosen before the beginning of time, then you will indeed one day accept the light of Christ and you will become regenerated, and you will be anointed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit; you will be cleansed of all your sins, and you will become a holy, righteous temple---a living temple of God. You will become a brand new creature, and your 'heart of stone' will become a 'heart of flesh,' as the Bible says. If that day comes, then you will know the truth, you will see the light, and you will know Christ for Who He is, and you will then have eternal life, and you will dwell in Heaven forever.
May God's will be done, and may His Name be glorified.
Jesus said there is only one God:
"How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from ***the only [monos] God***?" (John 5:44)
"After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, ***the only [monos] true God,*** and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:1-5)
Notice that in the above verses, Jesus refers to God as "Father" and calls Him "the only true God," yet He also refers to Himself as the Son, and says that the Father has given Him authority over all people to grant eternal life!
In both John 5:44 and John 17 (above), the word "monos" is used to describe God, which means "alone."
However, in the following verses, the word "hen" is used instead:
"The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord." (Mark 12:29)
"I and the Father are one [hen]." (John 10:30)
In the New Testament, this is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew word for 'one.' In Matthew 19:5, Jesus quotes Genesis 2:24 about a husband and wife becoming one flesh; the word used is 'hen.' Jesus prays that believers will be one, even as He and the Father are one. He did not mean their persons would be fused together; it means spiritually united. They are not one Person, but in nature they are unified. The God of the Old Testament is a united one. The God of the New Testament is a united one. This is what is meant by God being one.
In the Old Testament, teachings were focused on God being one in contrast to the polytheism of the nations that surrounded Israel. There are statements that speak of the plurality of this *one* God in the Old Testament record.
However, it is only when we come to the New Testament that this one in unity is explained.
Where John 10:30 says, "I and my Father are one," this is not a numerical one. Jesus is not saying He is the Father. They are not one person, but in nature they are unified. It actually reads "we are one" in Greek. The first-person plural 'esmen' means ‘we are.’ Again, this is a unity in nature, not a numerical statement.
The word 'one' in Greek is 'Hen,' and it is a neuter nominative, so it refers to one in essence and nature and kind. In John 10:30, it is saying that Jesus is deity just as the Father is. He went on to explain that he is the Son of God, and the Pharisees understood his claim of making himself out to be equal with the Father. That's why, in John 10:31, it says that the Jews took up stones to stone Jesus.
In the Old Testament, God is described as one. Deuteronomy 6:4 says, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (Or, "The Lord our God is one Lord.") The phrase "one Lord" is preceded in the Hebrew by 'elohenu;' it is "our God is one." The word for 'one' is not a numerical one, but is actually a *united* one. The Hebrew word for 'one' is 'echad,' which comes from the root word 'achad,' which means 'to unify or collect together' (the intensive reflexive form signifying 'to unite'). If this was meant to be a strict numerical statement, the Holy Spirit would have had Moses use the word 'yachid,' which means an absolute one; single; only one. 'Yachid' is used twelve times in the Scriptures; but ***not once*** is it used for YHWH God!
An example of this 'united one' is Genesis 1:5, where evening and morning are called one day (a combination of two parts to make one). They are both considered a day, yet we can distinguish them as different phases.
Another example is Genesis 2:24, where Adam and Eve become one flesh. Here, two personalities come together in marriage and become one---not one person, but one in unity. God sees them as one, even though they are not physically fused together like Siamese twins. So, if we say 'echad' in Deuteronomy 6:4 ("one") means a numerical one, then Siamese twins would be the only consideration for our understanding of Genesis 2:24 for man and wife becoming one flesh.
Other instances of 'echad,' which is also used for "one" in Deuteronomy 6:4 to describe God, is Genesis 11:6, where the people are one; or Ezra 2:64, where the whole assembly of Israel is like one.
Yet another example is Numbers 13:23, where, according to their view, when the spies went over into the land of Canaan, they brought back "one" grape (Hebrew: 'eschal echad.') It says that two of them carried it on a pole between them, along with pomegranates and figs. Why would they bring just one grape? Was one grape really that huge? Can anyone actually think it was a numerical statement? But in fact, it means a 'cluster' of grapes.
Other examples are Psalm 133:1, where the brethren is to dwell as one (in unity); 1 Samuel 3:17, where they are called one company; 2 Samuel 2:25, one troop; 1 Kings 7:42, one tribe; and in 1 Kings 11:13, Israel is called one nation.
Yet another example of 'echad' for "one" is Ezekiel 37:17, where Ezekial is told to put two sticks together, so that combined, they become 'one' stick, showing that the nation would be unified. In all these examples, it is not a strict singular meaning. This same word is applied to the 'one' God, and is clearly used as a compound unity.
The word for a strict single is 'yachid.' It's used in Genesis 22:2: "Take thy one and only son." This can also be used for God's only Son being unique and one-of-a-kind.
God is above and beyond all of us. None of us can fully and completely comprehend God. If we could, then He wouldn't be God. There is one and only one God. God eternally exists in three distinct Persons. In other words, God is said to be three Persons in one essence, nature, or being. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Spirit. Jesus is not a lesser deity than the Father. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are co-equal in nature. However, the Holy Spirit glorifies the Son and the Son glorifies the Father. The Trinity is not 1 + 1 + 1 (= 3) , but rather 1 x 1 x 1 (= 1).
I received a newsletter in the mail from the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. The title of the newsletter is "Yachad: Working Together to Bless Israel and her People." On the back page of the newsletter, it explains that 'yachad' is the Hebrew word for "together."
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